I do agree with that suggestion. Let them play in 4A or 5A. Just don’t cap the success rule and let them keep climbing if they keep winning.
Yep, and they should have to stay at the level they climb too for a period of time. This would guard against manipulating back down which tends to happen. Cascia has moved from 2A to 5A in the recent past. Metro has been from 2A to 4A. This just moves to many other Public schools around in classes to accommodate the Private schools.
john smith: can you check if my memory is right on these classes in the last 15 years? Pretty sure HH bounces back and forth also.
Last Edit: Dec 1, 2022 21:59:58 GMT -6 by prodigy10
I do agree with that suggestion. Let them play in 4A or 5A. Just don’t cap the success rule and let them keep climbing if they keep winning.
So if you're the Supt at say Blanchard, Newcastle, Tecumseh, Miami, Oologah, or Ada etc... you're ok with Lincoln, Holland, Heritage, Metro coming into 4a? And then the ripple affect of Cushing, Bethany, etc... coming down to 3A? When some go up, some come down.
Separate them in the playoffs. That way the privates get a full schedule and it doesn't affect the public schools in the playoffs. Or smaller school superintendents need to finally band together and leave the OSSAA.
prodigy10 Heritage Hall was last in 2A in 2009. They were 3A from 2010-2015. 4A in 2016 and 2017 and have been back in 3A from 2018-2022. In that span, they have won titles in 2A, 3A, and 4A.
Cascia was 2A in the early 90s, 3A from 96-99, 2A from 2000-03, 3A 04-05, 2A 06-07, 3A 08-11, 4A 12-17, 3A 18-19, 2A 20-21, 3A 2022.
Metro was 2A through 2003, 3A 2004-2013, 4A 14-17, 2A 2018-2021, 3A 2022
Lincoln was 2A from 2008-2011. Has been 3A since 2012
Holland Hall was 2A from 2016-2019. Has been 3A since 2020
Last Edit: Dec 2, 2022 9:22:02 GMT -6 by johnsmith
Post by grizzledballcoach17 on Dec 2, 2022 9:31:47 GMT -6
Texas separates their private and public schools and seems to be working there. The big difference down there is the "haves and have nots" between the inner-city schools and the big suburban schools, but they are governed by the UIL. Looks like we should adopt that model.
The time has officially come for a public private split. Verdigris deserves to be champions. It is not a level playing field. Privates should play up another class.
They lost in the semi final so they got what they deserved.
The controlling enrollment is not a solid argument. The 3 privates in the semis are HH, Metro, and LC. How many kids do you think they are “turning away” by controlling their enrollment.
The 3 big boys have 2A enrollment. There are 8 2A schools bigger than HH, 16 bigger than Metro, and 28 bigger than LC.
These 3 could turn away the following number of kids and still be in 3A: HH- 137 Metro- 152 LC- 169
Sorry, but even if they are turning kids away, it’s not enough to matter.
It's not who is in the school, it's who isn't. Go stand in the halls at Dewey, Muldrow, Seminole and then Cascia, Holland, Lincoln...
not true without privates washington and others would be up to 3a!!!!!!!!!
Good point ^ So private schools are having negative effects on multiple classes just so OSSAA can accommodate schools with advantages that public schools don't have, absolutely ridiculous when it effects kids and their senior year. You have a senior group at Verdigris that has worked their tails off to get in a position to win a state title as seniors and you have private schools like these 3 that move up into their class because of an advantage rule and potentially took it away! Then 2A gets to deal with a Washington team that should be up a class in 3A so they can make room for the few private schools who don't want to play on a level playing field with the same type schools and maintain their advantage over the public schools so they can beat their chests.
The true reason that no private argument wants to talk about, that I will let out of the bag, is private schools need public school teams to beat up on to continue to make themselves look attractive to these very kids so they will want to transfer into the school at all ages and be a part of these so called amazing programs( Not very many of these kids start their education at these private schools) That is if you meet their athletic or academic requirements and admissions process. Privates are afraid they will lose their advantage and become irrelevant to the majority of the kids in Oklahoma if they are separated. Private schools are basically a nonprofit business that needs advertisement and a sense of upper level achievement to maintain their student enrolment and revenue streams. They build extravagant facilities for no other reason than to advertise, maintain their persona and attract kids. Privates schools and Public schools are not at all similar in the way they are ran and the way they are governed.
Post by richardrobert on Dec 2, 2022 14:02:10 GMT -6
what about the kids at Stigler, or Kingfisher, or____ville, or_____ville?? They all have senior groups that have worked their tails off too. It is sad that the whole argument on this topic is about what is not "fair".
The kids at private schools don't get to choose their parents, just the same as the ones in public school didn't get to choose theirs. So some kids end up in private schools because their parents feel like that will help them in life... Private schools "need" public schools to beat up on? You sound as if these private schools can just whip up a championship team anytime they want. Explain why Holland Hall was so bad this year coming off of back to back state titles.
Do you know any families who have kids at these schools? I am wondering where you are getting your information to make such statements such as "Privates are afraid they will lose their advantage and become irrelevant to the majority of the kids in Oklahoma if they are separated. Private schools are basically a nonprofit business that needs advertisement and a sense of upper level achievement to maintain their student enrollment and revenue streams. They build extravagant facilities for no other reason than to advertise, maintain their persona and attract kids." Sense of upper level achievement? You're probably right there. I would like to see the average ACT score of each class of all the schools in OSSAA. Wouldn't you want to send your kid to one of these private schools if you had the means? I know I would.
The worst thing about all of this public vs private BS is you are teaching them to have excuses. If I am a private school player and my team is going up against a public school and I know that the parents (who probably also pass along this fixed mind set to their kids) see this game as being "unfair", I like my chances, because the public school team is already 1/2 beaten.
Every kid who lives within the school district boundaries but goes to the public school instead.
Each Private school lies in a Public school district.
and why do those kids go to private school?
Because there is an advantage. If there were no advantage to Private schools, they wouldn't exist. I think Private schools do a great job at what they do. They just aren't the same as Public schools.
what about the kids at Stigler, or Kingfisher, or____ville, or_____ville?? They all have senior groups that have worked their tails off too. It is sad that the whole argument on this topic is about what is not "fair".
The kids at private schools don't get to choose their parents, just the same as the ones in public school didn't get to choose theirs. So some kids end up in private schools because their parents feel like that will help them in life... Private schools "need" public schools to beat up on? You sound as if these private schools can just whip up a championship team anytime they want. Explain why Holland Hall was so bad this year coming off of back to back state titles.
Do you know any families who have kids at these schools? I am wondering where you are getting your information to make such statements such as "Privates are afraid they will lose their advantage and become irrelevant to the majority of the kids in Oklahoma if they are separated. Private schools are basically a nonprofit business that needs advertisement and a sense of upper level achievement to maintain their student enrollment and revenue streams. They build extravagant facilities for no other reason than to advertise, maintain their persona and attract kids." Sense of upper level achievement? You're probably right there. I would like to see the average ACT score of each class of all the schools in OSSAA. Wouldn't you want to send your kid to one of these private schools if you had the means? I know I would.
The worst thing about all of this public vs private BS is you are teaching them to have excuses. If I am a private school player and my team is going up against a public school and I know that the parents (who probably also pass along this fixed mind set to their kids) see this game as being "unfair", I like my chances, because the public school team is already 1/2 beaten.
Post by richardrobert on Dec 2, 2022 14:17:32 GMT -6
Not to mention, this whole thread, the whole thing is focused on performance. If I had a high school aged kid, which I don't anymore, I would want him to play football, regardless if they were 10-0 or 0-10. I would want him to be on the team to afford him the best vehicle there is available to teach a young men about life.. football!! .... hard work, selflessness, sportsmanship, sacrifice, handling adversity, discipline, and on and on and on. If they have a winning season, great, that's fun, but those wins and losses will fade.... the other stuff won't.
Last Edit: Dec 2, 2022 14:18:38 GMT -6 by richardrobert
Because there is an advantage. If there were no advantage to Private schools, they wouldn't exist. I think Private schools do a great job at what they do. They just aren't the same as Public schools.
prodigy10 Heritage Hall was last in 2A in 2009. They were 3A from 2010-2015. 4A in 2016 and 2017 and have been back in 3A from 2018-2022. In that span, they have won titles in 2A, 3A, and 4A.
Cascia was 2A in the early 90s, 3A from 96-99, 2A from 2000-03, 3A 04-05, 2A 06-07, 3A 08-11, 4A 12-17, 3A 18-19, 2A 20-21, 3A 2022.
Metro was 2A through 2003, 3A 2004-2013, 4A 14-17, 2A 2018-2021, 3A 2022
Lincoln was 2A from 2008-2011. Has been 3A since 2012
Holland Hall was 2A from 2016-2019. Has been 3A since 2020
Thanks your the man, Unbelievable the amount of information you are able to come up with!
I missed Cascia by a class... but like I was thinking they move up and down quite a bit to say the least.
what about the kids at Stigler, or Kingfisher, or____ville, or_____ville?? They all have senior groups that have worked their tails off too. It is sad that the whole argument on this topic is about what is not "fair".
The kids at private schools don't get to choose their parents, just the same as the ones in public school didn't get to choose theirs. So some kids end up in private schools because their parents feel like that will help them in life... Private schools "need" public schools to beat up on? You sound as if these private schools can just whip up a championship team anytime they want. Explain why Holland Hall was so bad this year coming off of back to back state titles.
Do you know any families who have kids at these schools? I am wondering where you are getting your information to make such statements such as "Privates are afraid they will lose their advantage and become irrelevant to the majority of the kids in Oklahoma if they are separated. Private schools are basically a nonprofit business that needs advertisement and a sense of upper level achievement to maintain their student enrollment and revenue streams. They build extravagant facilities for no other reason than to advertise, maintain their persona and attract kids." Sense of upper level achievement? You're probably right there. I would like to see the average ACT score of each class of all the schools in OSSAA. Wouldn't you want to send your kid to one of these private schools if you had the means? I know I would.
The worst thing about all of this public vs private BS is you are teaching them to have excuses. If I am a private school player and my team is going up against a public school and I know that the parents (who probably also pass along this fixed mind set to their kids) see this game as being "unfair", I like my chances, because the public school team is already 1/2 beaten.
With this mindset why even separate schools into classes? If it doesn't matter if the game is "unfair" then send class A Hominy over to play 6A Jenks. I would like the chances for Jenks since the Hominy kids would be 1/2 beaten thinking this is "unfair". Maybe just take out the weight classes in Wrestling why you're at it? Have the heavy weights spar with the light weights. You make a very silly argument! The point in all this is to make an even playing field for all involved. Why would you not want your kid to get a fair shot?
Holland Hall from what I have heard had some internal issues that effected all their programs (Baseball included). Might actually end up tying into this entire conversation. So great example of possibly bending the rules. Explain to me how they ended up winning back to back state championships and beat up on public schools? Then may end up back down a class after a couple of subpar years? Then just happen to cycle back up. The funny thing is your example use to play in a private school league and asked to come play public schools for some reason? So, from a history standpoint this is a very poor example but good job proving my point for the desire to play publics schools.
I know multiple families that are from and in Private schools. I have myself been in both and have the means necessary to send a kid if I would so choose. Do you not realize there are a large portion of public schools kids that can afford Private schools but choose not too? Without question some of the wealthiest people I know send their kids to and support public schools. Where do you think the Private school kids end up coming from for the most part? Maybe you also don't realize that Privates have financial aid for kids or if a kid is special enough, they get financial assistance (no payback required). I know exactly what goes on and how both are viewed by the other. Are you saying Private schools do not generate revenue to run the schools? How do they get this revenue? Thing is you don't get to choose to send your kid to one of these schools. They are the ones that choose to let your kid in to one of these schools. You seem to be arguing on points you know very little about? As for ACT scores, if you take the same level of kid that is required through the admissions process at a Private school (A and B student) and compare that to the same level of Public school kids the ACT scores will be very similar. Public school kids make up the vast majority of academic scholars at college universities. End of the day just separate both and there is no argument either way. Why insist on keeping Public and Private together? Seems like an agenda of some kind.
Last Edit: Dec 2, 2022 21:25:21 GMT -6 by prodigy10
Post by danceswithwolves on Dec 2, 2022 22:39:00 GMT -6
The private schools that don’t want anything to do with the “poor and unwashed” want to play in the sports arena with them because nobody gives a crap about the private only league. They want the recognition from the masses instead of just their rich friends.
Post by notcoachsmith on Dec 2, 2022 23:05:36 GMT -6
There is just as much poverty at private schools than there is public schools. Have you ever drove by Victory Christian and looked at the vehicles in the parking lot? There are a lot of 2020-2021 Chevys and Fords in that parking lot. It’s not just rich kids with BMWs and Range Rovers. Poverty even exists in private schools.
The private schools that don’t want anything to do with the “poor and unwashed” want to play in the sports arena with them because nobody gives a crap about the private only league. They want the recognition from the masses instead of just their rich friends.
The private schools that don’t want anything to do with the “poor and unwashed” want to play in the sports arena with them because nobody gives a crap about the private only league. They want the recognition from the masses instead of just their rich friends.